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  [2008-09-16 19::55:16] » webchick joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 19::57:51] » sutha joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 19::59:29] yoroy: hey room

 

  [2008-09-16 20::01:00] Bojhan: yoroy: Room is open

 

  [2008-09-16 20::04:10] » jeffnoyes joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::04:23] yoroy: right on!

 

  [2008-09-16 20::04:26] jeffnoyes: hi everyone

 

  [2008-09-16 20::04:45] drumm: anyone keeping notes for me?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::04:54] webchick: Uh oh. I guess this means I should put on pants.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::04:56] yoroy: good question. who is taking notes.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::05:08] shannonlucas: webchick: we have to wear pants?! damn it!

 

  [2008-09-16 20::05:13] drumm: jeffnoyes: does that have a linux client?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::05:25] jeffnoyes: nope. Not easily.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::05:26] yoroy: hey shannonlucas, good you're here

 

  [2008-09-16 20::05:59] shannonlucas: still getting caught up on the ux forum posts from the weekend

 

  [2008-09-16 20::06:16] jeffnoyes: your ahead of me then.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::06:46] drumm: jeffnoyes: I do have a mac, but it is usually booted into ubuntu. I have another call scheduled against this anyway

 

  [2008-09-16 20::07:13] » heatherj joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::07:34] jeffnoyes: Ok. It's merely to video conference at this point. It's an option

 

  [2008-09-16 20::07:43] » CrashAFK joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::07:50] drumm: oh I don't have a camera on my mac mini

 

  [2008-09-16 20::07:58] Bojhan: Who's crashAFK?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::08:03] » CrashAFK is now known as CrashTest_.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::08:19] CrashTest_: Just me, poking my big nose in where it probably doesn't belong :)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::08:42] webchick: CrashTest_: Dude, are you stalking me? :P

 

  [2008-09-16 20::08:49] drumm: we do have some newer imacs around the office, I could use one next time

 

  [2008-09-16 20::08:53] CrashTest_: But usability interests me, so if noone minds, I will hang out for a while.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::10:30] » stephthegeek joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::10:41] Bojhan: yoroy: Are we skyping into a confrence call?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::10:47] heatherj: oh!

 

  [2008-09-16 20::11:00] shannonlucas: me too

 

  [2008-09-16 20::11:04] yoroy: it is

 

  [2008-09-16 20::11:34] jeffnoyes: I have a whiteboard up at acquia.acrobat.com/jeffnoyes

 

  [2008-09-16 20::12:44] CrashTest_: webchick: thought you said "staring" not "stalking", the joke doesn't work with stalking, and no, not stalking you. I clicked on the #drupal-usability link that lut4rp posted in #drupal.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::13:02] webchick: Ah. :)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::13:17] » You changed the topic to "AGENDA: 1: Nail down top 10 UX issues | 2: How to work on each issue | 3: Who does what? | 4: Get started".

 

  [2008-09-16 20::13:32] CrashTest_: Because I said to myself "We have a usability channel?!?! I'm so there!"

 

  [2008-09-16 20::14:05] jeffnoyes: so where do we start? Time is tight.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::14:17] yoroy: ok. lets begin then.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::15:16] jeffnoyes: it was 90% of the study results

 

  [2008-09-16 20::15:28] yoroy: yes.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:11] Bojhan: webchick: You want to do a confrence call? Idk how to set it up.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:21] webchick: Bojhan: I prefer IRC if it's ok with everyone else.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:32] heatherj: txt is good for record

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:33] webchick: And if I have to drift off to work on client work I don't miss anything

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:36] Bojhan: webchick: Doesnt, connect pro log?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:41] webchick: Um. Not sure.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:46] Bojhan: Hmm, ok. To bad.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::16:55] webchick: Skype doesn't though

 

  [2008-09-16 20::17:00] » elv_ joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::17:01] webchick: jeffnoyes: do you know?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::17:27] jeffnoyes: I can record the meeting, but it's only available to me unless I post (not trivial)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::17:28] Bojhan: webchick: I think amazon, once recorded it trough adobe connect - you can talk on adobe connect just like skype.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::17:44] webchick: Hm. Did I miss a dial-in number?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::18:03] jeffnoyes: how did you do that?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::18:49] webchick: Ther is a "push to talk" butto

 

  [2008-09-16 20::19:54] Bojhan: webchick I didnt hear you.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::20:05] webchick: Bojhan: Yeah, looks like you are the call master. :D

 

  [2008-09-16 20::20:53] shannonlucas: i can't do an audio meeting. share office space with another person who happens to be on a conference call right now

 

  [2008-09-16 20::21:14] » chx is now known as chx_sleeping.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::21:22] webchick: Yeah, IRC++

 

  [2008-09-16 20::21:45] Bojhan: Sounds good.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::22:01] jeffnoyes: I'll get our adobe guy to help out for future events.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::22:03] shannonlucas: and since he's the boss, i can't make him get off the phone :-p

 

  [2008-09-16 20::22:04] webchick: But! We can still draw pictures! :D

 

  [2008-09-16 20::22:29] jeffnoyes: and you can share your video - if you so choose

 

  [2008-09-16 20::22:35] webchick: Eek!!

 

  [2008-09-16 20::22:47] jeffnoyes: that's ok

 

  [2008-09-16 20::22:56] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: Yup, would be great if we could get adobe connect working for next meetings, it should work great if it works hehe.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::23:10] yoroy: right.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::23:42] jeffnoyes: Good news is that it's looking positive that Adobe might be willing to donate a bunch of licenses to the drupal community.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::23:56] webchick: jeffnoyes: Awesome!! :)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::24:18] yoroy: we have a list of 'stuff' that needs improvement. Not every ux-problem == 1 patch. What do we work on and when can we say it has been fixed.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::25:23] jeffnoyes: I'd love to see the szeged teams continue to work on their tasks until they think it's complete. If there are new folks, we have that one task that never got off the ground

 

  [2008-09-16 20::25:58] yoroy: yes. we shouldn't be working on 10 (big) problems at the same time

 

  [2008-09-16 20::26:01] heatherj: the parent items list?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::26:08] yoroy: heatherj: yep

 

  [2008-09-16 20::26:27] heatherj: i'd sign up to join others on it

 

  [2008-09-16 20::27:19] webchick: The biggest thing I'd like people to keep in mind as they go through is http://webchick.net/please-stop-eating-baby-kittens

 

  [2008-09-16 20::27:51] yoroy: yes.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::27:53] jeffnoyes: maybe instead, each team should have an organizer to bring the teams together every so often to work on their bucket. Then have an occasional meeting with the group at large to discuss the findings.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::28:28] yoroy: agreed. I'd like to see some people taking the lead for each ux-issue

 

  [2008-09-16 20::28:44] jeffnoyes: I can take the lead for the help issue.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::29:32] yoroy: cool. there's a lot of work being done on that. Needs direction though, focus back onto fixing the welcome screen

 

  [2008-09-16 20::29:33] Bojhan: Oke, I am a bit derailed here. But we are discussing, how we approach the top 10 big issues?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::29:39] jeffnoyes: building on my earlier comment, we could also come together to talk about reworking g.d.o.u

 

  [2008-09-16 20::30:22] heatherj: loves the recent changes at the usability group.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::30:40] yoroy: heatherj: yeah, thanks for your input there!

 

  [2008-09-16 20::30:49] webchick: Something else the Documentation Team is talking about doing is getting some sort of a calendar that schedules "sprints" on certain things

 

  [2008-09-16 20::31:16] yoroy: right. webchick wants clear places to send people to for ux help/input.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::31:22] jeffnoyes: exactly.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::31:23] webchick: For example, highlighting the week of Sept X through Sept Y as "Bang on the help system" week

 

  [2008-09-16 20::31:26] yoroy: we need to channel the input

 

  [2008-09-16 20::31:30] jeffnoyes: like a bowling league ;)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::31:35] yoroy: ah, doodle.com right?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::32:52] jeffnoyes: I think if we can organize ourselves, great work will result.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::33:07] yoroy: So, let's not try and set the 'top 10' in stone today and focus on organizing ourselves

 

  [2008-09-16 20::33:34] heatherj: good idea- anyway, need to test out the process... getting developers involved and onboard

 

  [2008-09-16 20::34:14] yoroy: heatherj: http://img.skitch.com/20080916-r56m7d9fy3wtfj9cn26asenm9i.jpg

 

  [2008-09-16 20::34:36] jeffnoyes: ahh, you found skitch! skitch rocks

 

  [2008-09-16 20::34:49] Bojhan: So I am a bit worried here, what are we doing diffrent then now? Oke, we put sprints on certain issues, but how will that speed up issues?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::35:18] yoroy: Bojhan: don't worry, that's what we're discussing right now

 

  [2008-09-16 20::35:31] Bojhan: I dont know if 20 responses, is better then 10? Usability wise.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::35:42] jeffnoyes: if we organize our thoughts, and post solutions to our issues, webchick can help us see them through.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::36:00] Bojhan: Oke, so what do you think of, organizing our thoughts?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::36:14] jeffnoyes: the change to d.o is a start.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::36:15] Bojhan: Currently, most of our thoughts are broadcasted trough the issue ques.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::36:23] jeffnoyes: exactly.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::36:32] Bojhan: Is that a wrong path?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::37:10] yoroy: well, the context-switching kittie eating monster should be kept out of the issue queue.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::38:38] heatherj: being at the BOF in szeged- seeing the sketches helped. this is a visual discussion. the issues are like little tick boxes... but we need a drawing to develop consensus- to focus and weed out what works.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::39:15] jeffnoyes: whiteboard help?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::39:25] heatherj: wishes graffle was open source and cross-platform.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::39:59] shannonlucas: heatherj: Dia is available for Linux and Windows...not the same as Graffle but does an okay job

 

  [2008-09-16 20::40:38] heatherj: do those files work in graffle or other mac program? (will google that shannonlucas )

 

  [2008-09-16 20::40:40] Bojhan: So, the tool is not really the problem I think. We know that people should supply more drafts and sketches to supplement there idea, but this isnt happening now and unlikely is to suddenly in the future. Should we - pick our forces to supply visual presentations of our ideas on every issue?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::41:58] jeffnoyes: that's were organizing comes in. In Szeged, we bucketed the issues, and people volunteered their names.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::42:01] heatherj: Bojhan: i was wondering if we could work a file into the process.. something people could download, edit, annotate- so it could evolve visually.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::42:53] Bojhan: heatherj: People can redraw it? Download the image, annotate it? I am not sure if you need a tool, to solve this issue there are a million work arounds.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::43:09] heatherj: *nod*

 

  [2008-09-16 20::43:31] jeffnoyes: you guys use fireworks at all? it's great for that

 

  [2008-09-16 20::43:49] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: So, you bundled like al list of issues that were around one subject?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::44:01] jeffnoyes: yup

 

  [2008-09-16 20::44:30] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: Is it possible to reproduce this, on a large scale. So if we do a sprint, of 1/2 weeks that we work on a number of issues at once?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::45:07] yoroy: Do we want book-nodes on g.d.o? To collect multiple pages around 1 topic?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::45:13] jeffnoyes: I think it is. If there's a calendar, you can assign dates to get together on a particular subject. Those interested in the subject could join and colaborate

 

  [2008-09-16 20::46:14] heatherj: yoroy: that is a really good idea. book ftw.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::46:47] yoroy: heatherj: there's only so much we can do with a wiki! :)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::47:06] Bojhan: Oke, so lets assume this is possible. Would it be a good idea, to appoint people to like an issue to do the pre-form research ? (finding all the issues, usability data, forum topics)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::48:39] CrashTest_: btw, dabbleboard does online collaborative sketching/drawing

 

  [2008-09-16 20::48:42] Bojhan: Webchick, shannonlucas: Any thoughts on this? We are thinking of the process, to tackle the large number of issues around certain usability subjects.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::49:21] yoroy: Ideally wed have a 'core-team' for each topic. Ideally consisting architects/designers/coders/testers

 

  [2008-09-16 20::49:21] webchick: Hi. :)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::49:33] shannonlucas: Bojhan: having a little trouble keeping up. seems like there are several conversations goin gon

 

  [2008-09-16 20::50:30] webchick: So my overall thought is

 

  [2008-09-16 20::50:55] Bojhan: shannonlucas: Yes, And then work on one bucket a time.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::50:55] jeffnoyes: Bojhan: we shouldn't appoint. In szeged, we posted the issues and allowed people to assign their names. That way people are only working on topics they are interested in.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::51:14] » catch joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::51:16] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: Ofcourse, sorry I didnt mean it like that.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::51:21] yoroy: hey catch

 

  [2008-09-16 20::51:22] webchick: Using g.d.o as the place where the 80-reply discussion happens, and the issue queue being used as the targeted "This is what needs to happen, as discussed at <link>"

 

  [2008-09-16 20::51:25] catch: evenin'

 

  [2008-09-16 20::51:43] heatherj: waves to catch. こんばんわ

 

  [2008-09-16 20::51:59] jeffnoyes: hey catch

 

  [2008-09-16 20::52:03] yoroy: webchick: very much agreed

 

  [2008-09-16 20::52:23] webchick: We can use Drupal Planet to broadcast "This is the Usability team's 'itch of the week'"

 

  [2008-09-16 20::52:40] yoroy: but how to handle the 80-reply discussions? :-)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::52:49] webchick: This general approach seems to have worked /really/ well for getting people involved in the d.o redesign brainstorming

 

  [2008-09-16 20::52:51] Bojhan: just saw yoroy, ask the question.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::53:02] webchick: yoroy: The same way that we handle 80-reply discussions in the patch queue.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::54:33] shannonlucas: webchick: so the idea is that no one starts trying to fix things before step 4's feedback?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::54:34] webchick: Step 5: "Hi, developers! Here's an issue. The spec you're implementing is <link>"

 

  [2008-09-16 20::54:49] heatherj: i like the idea that the usability starts all-together, as webchick suggests, zerg one problem; figure out how the process works.. (whether or not we later divvy up buckets or sub-groups).

 

  [2008-09-16 20::54:51] webchick: shannonlucas: For these larger, over-arching problems, I think that's a good way to go.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::55:39] shannonlucas: webchick: you answered it in step 5. i agree that's the best approach. if someone reads half0way down the discussion and decides to fix something that later folks decided didn't need to be fixed, time has been wasted

 

  [2008-09-16 20::55:47] webchick: Yep.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::55:54] shannonlucas: and folks get grumpy

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:03] yoroy: So for each issue the cycle would have to be DESIGN > (pre-test) > BUILD > TEST

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:20] webchick: yoroy: Well, more like BRAINSTORM > DESIGN > (pre-test) > BUILD > TEST

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:29] shannonlucas: she beat me to it

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:33] webchick: But I think it's important to let people get their gripes out.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:37] yoroy: yeahyeah :-)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:39] shannonlucas: there has to be an analysis of some sort before design starts

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:56] heatherj: adds timebox to her mental dictionary.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::56:57] yoroy: Design meaning architecting as well

 

  [2008-09-16 20::57:08] webchick: Cos it doesnt make sense to design if you don't know what the actual problems are with the current interface.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::57:15] Bojhan: lol

 

  [2008-09-16 20::57:17] webchick: Or what people would like to see, ideally.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::57:38] Bojhan: Well, that last bit. We hear it from 20 diffrent types of people, which always makes it a hard discussion.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::57:53] webchick: Sorry, by Timebox I mean "Ok, let's have a big gripe-fest about $topic. Get your digs in now, because in $timeperiod, we start whipping up wireframes!"

 

  [2008-09-16 20::57:56] shannonlucas: it also ensures that you have enough information

 

  [2008-09-16 20::58:10] heatherj: nods to webchick.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::58:22] yoroy: ok. sounds like we can agree on a process here.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::58:42] Bojhan: Can you summarize it?

 

  [2008-09-16 20::58:48] yoroy: haha

 

  [2008-09-16 20::58:53] webchick: Bojhan: Of course, being able to read and synthesize feedback, and being able to tell what's ok to dismiss and what's really really important is also key.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::59:07] yoroy: Bojhan: read webchick's point 1 to 5 :-)

 

  [2008-09-16 20::59:08] webchick: Community consensus is really a good indicator.

 

  [2008-09-16 20::59:55] yoroy: hehe, i was just about to menti…

 

  [2008-09-16 21::00:18] webchick: Or you can read it as "People want to see a wordmark that's more distinct and looks less like a typical 'web 2.0' mark."

 

  [2008-09-16 21::00:43] elv_: true

 

  [2008-09-16 21::00:44] Bojhan: webchick: I dont really get it, if thats not though, why has it been hard to get any usability improvement in? It usually strands on that part, analyzing what people said to get to a refine outcome. I dont mind going this way, but I do think we should be a bit more critic on the current process we have.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::00:47] webchick: So take a step back and view the feedback in aggregate, rather than focusing on each individual comment.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::01:54] elv_: and we didn't manage to catch developers attention

 

  [2008-09-16 21::02:10] webchick: elv_: Right, because developers don't hang out on g.d.o/usability. They hang out in #drupal

 

  [2008-09-16 21::02:13] yoroy: also, sometimes the response will have to be plain silence.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::02:19] webchick: Which is why I'd like this stuff to d be discussed there as much as possible.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::03:03] yoroy: yep. can we still talk dutch though?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::03:11] webchick: And you can decide how transparent you want to be, and you can decide what feedback you do and do not take into consideration.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::03:13] yoroy: :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::03:14] Bojhan: webchick: Yes, but, thats managable, because its one person saying it. If you have 20 people doing that, it is really hard to filter.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::03:27] webchick: But. I think that it's valuable to include the community, including the development community.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::03:36] jeffnoyes: it would be good to know what motivates a developer in this community.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::03:45] webchick: jeffnoyes: That's a tough question to answer.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::04:09] yoroy: Bojhan: that's where you filter the input mentally and just ignore the noise. Don't feel like you must counter each and every comment, suggestion with specific feedback.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::04:10] jeffnoyes: for example, if there using the d.o community as an outlet to get away from process from the 9-5, we have a bigger problem

 

  [2008-09-16 21::04:21] webchick: Some do it for personal reasons, some do it for ego, some do it because they're paid to..

 

  [2008-09-16 21::04:27] Bojhan: But, who will filter that then? The UX-team?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::04:36] webchick: Bojhan: Yeah. I don't see anyone else who's qualified.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::04:42] yoroy: Bojhan: the experts

 

  [2008-09-16 21::04:53] webchick: Bojhan: If someone says "That needs to be 3px to the right" I don't know if that's a useful comment or if it's just bitching.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::05:07] Bojhan: webchick: But, thats not the issue.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::06:10] webchick: Bojhan: but you guys know who each other are.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::06:35] shannonlucas: Bojhan: the usability team has to make that call sometimes. sometimes that means bruising somebody's ego

 

  [2008-09-16 21::06:37] webchick: So you can aggregate feedback from people you know to be knowledgeable.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::07:10] yoroy: true.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::07:13] Bojhan: Ahhh, oke! So, the usability team, at the ends analyses the discussion, and then points out the best option to go for?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::07:21] webchick: So someone just says "I think the content type page sucks. Here's my best stab at fixing it."

 

  [2008-09-16 21::07:32] Bojhan: sorry, ux-team*

 

  [2008-09-16 21::07:34] webchick: You guys make the recommendation.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::07:50] » catch_ joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::07:59] » catch_ is now known as catch__.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::08:06] webchick: If people start raising a stink we go, "hey. we already discussed this. It's over at <link>. So STFU"

 

  [2008-09-16 21::08:23] Bojhan: webchick: But, if everyone can take part in it, how is it diffrent from the discussion?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::08:41] webchick: Bojhan: a) it's targeted, b) there is a group of experts driving it.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::08:53] yoroy: Bojhan: you already are quite visible in #drupal. don't worry, you already are proving yourself to be an expert!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::09:08] heatherj: Bojhan- we may "learn by going" where we need to go, in terms of creating a relationship or involvement on the part of the developers. perhaps we can spend last part of meeting on changes we need to implement to put the process in place so we can try out webchick's suggested steps.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::09:17] webchick: Bojhan: It's a "top-down" procedure. What happens in the issue queue is very "bottom-up"

 

  [2008-09-16 21::09:34] shannonlucas: Bojhan: anyone can provide feedback in the timebox. after that the operation is transparent, but not necessarily open to outside input

 

  [2008-09-16 21::09:49] Bojhan: shannonlucas: Webchick is saying, it is open.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::09:53] webchick: Bojhan: I think we still very much need bottom-up, for the vast majority of minor issues just need a nod from one of you that says "This will not harm any puppies."

 

  [2008-09-16 21::10:08] Bojhan: webchick: kitties, but ok :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::10:46] webchick: shannonlucas: I would prefer it to be open the whole way along. but of course, you guys can have a "back-channel" that's like "Oh dude, that guy is so full of crap." :P

 

  [2008-09-16 21::10:48] shannonlucas: Bojhan: we also need to be able to back up our decisions either with user test data or industry research

 

  [2008-09-16 21::11:12] Bojhan: shannonlucas: Right, thats the pre-test phase I think.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::11:23] webchick: Again, just because someone expresses an opinion does *not* mean that you need to take it into consideration

 

  [2008-09-16 21::12:02] yoroy: shannonlucas: and the last part. Ideal scenario is no Core UX patch gets committed before it has been tested on real live humans

 

  [2008-09-16 21::12:10] webchick: Yes.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::12:32] shannonlucas: yoroy: please tell me i don't have to do HIPPA forms for all that :-p

 

  [2008-09-16 21::12:33] yoroy: hehe :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::12:37] webchick: But what's important is that the "really big stuff" works like that.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::12:41] yoroy: explain hippa?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::13:05] Bojhan: webchick: It can, people just cant be botherd.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::13:06] shannonlucas: yoroy: paperwork you have to do when testing with human subjects in a university environment

 

  [2008-09-16 21::13:10] webchick: Maybe I need to make an omnigraffle. :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::13:14] shannonlucas: (in the US)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::13:44] webchick: Bojhan: So can you explain your bitterness/resentment towards the developer community? Like has someone insulted you personally over something you've suggested? I get this feeling of serious ire from you.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::13:50] » illuminaut joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::14:01] webchick: Where I see the community as a bunch of well-meaning but not terribly informed people regarding UX

 

  [2008-09-16 21::14:20] Bojhan: webchick: Hehe, no not at all. I am just beign critical, on the process, that we take a diffrent approach then what we do all the time.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::14:30] webchick: And the establishment of a UX team a great educational opportunity, in addition to the opportunity to fix a bunch of the problems we have seen.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::14:35] shannonlucas: webchick: i haven't noticed it in the drupal community, but on other open source projects there is some hostility to UX

 

  [2008-09-16 21::14:44] illuminaut: hi, sorry to crash this party late

 

  [2008-09-16 21::14:51] webchick: Bojhan: Sure, so explain a counter-process. :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::15:11] shannonlucas: but i think the drupal community has embraced the concept

 

  [2008-09-16 21::15:21] heatherj: waves to illuminaut.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::15:23] shannonlucas: (given that we're having this discussion)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::15:36] webchick: I think there's been a *dramatic* shift how seriously the Drupal community takes UX since the university studies.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::15:53] elv_: yes the studies helped a LOT

 

  [2008-09-16 21::16:02] webchick: That changed a lot when UofB found exactly the same thing.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::16:26] Bojhan: webchick: Ohh, how many times I have heared "It's a problem between the chair, and the keyboard". But thats oke.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::16:28] shannonlucas: i had a client that didn't wake up till they had user tests

 

  [2008-09-16 21::16:31] webchick: And in Dries's keynote at Szeged, usability was either 1st or 2nd in the list of developers' things they wanted improved;.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::16:38] elv_: it helped because it's a way to somewhat "measure"

 

  [2008-09-16 21::16:42] webchick: So clearly, things are changing.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::16:54] yoroy: elv_: yep. we need benchmarks

 

  [2008-09-16 21::17:08] webchick: shannonlucas: Sure, it's human nature. Something visual makes a HUGE difference than someone trying to patiently explain something. ;)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::17:10] yoroy: to prevent the bikeshedding

 

  [2008-09-16 21::17:15] elv_: but usability was also id Dries's keynote in Barcelona. And Brussels. But not at the top of the list

 

  [2008-09-16 21::17:20] webchick: Which is why if we /could/ get those Adobe Connect licenses it would be fantastic.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::17:38] yoroy: let's prove we're worthy of them

 

  [2008-09-16 21::17:52] webchick: elv_: Eh. it was like 2 slides in those presentations.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::18:16] yoroy: elv_: don't look back, we have momentum now!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::18:42] webchick: In $undisclosed_us_location, the UX team will clearly take over.. the wooooorrrlld!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::18:49] heatherj: points at the clock in case anyone needs to focus on a wrap-up.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::18:52] webchick: yoroy: yes, that's really important.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::18:52] Bojhan: So from what I understood now Pick Subject > Discuss/Brainstrom > Analyze by UX-team > Usability test > Build > Polish > Usability test ?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::19:18] elv_: it's good to look back sometimes, to realize the progress we've made ;)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::19:32] Bojhan: elv_: not fast enough!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::19:37] yoroy: elv_: ah in that way, yes :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::20:15] webchick: Bojhan: That's my suggestion. With the discussion happening out in the open, and individual comments either ignored or taken into consideration, at your discretion.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::20:36] shannonlucas: yeah, design by committe is a disaster

 

  [2008-09-16 21::20:43] webchick: Because it helps raise the collective design IQ of the community when they can see the process.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::21:29] Bojhan: webchick: Oke. I think it sounds good,

 

  [2008-09-16 21::21:53] yoroy: So, focus on Help as a first project?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::22:14] webchick: Btw, I think I've said this enough times now but I am NOT a designer, NOT a UX person, etc. So please feel free to disregard /my/ comments as well. :P But something I am a bit of an expert on is the Drupal community, since that is my life. :P

 

  [2008-09-16 21::22:43] Bojhan: webchick: Community viablility is just as important as UX viability, we all realize that.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::22:51] yoroy: webchick: you're doing fine so far! :-) glad to have you on board!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::23:05] Bojhan: yoroy: Isnt, help a last resort? I dont know, but I think there are bigger issues to focus on?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::23:10] webchick: yoroy: Yay! :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::23:18] shannonlucas: webchick: and that's an important perspective to have; if we're not playing in the same sandbox, we need to have that reality check

 

  [2008-09-16 21::23:18] CrashTest_: silly question, but where does one go if they want to find out what they can do to help in this arena?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::23:31] yoroy: Bojhan: 'help' is the broad topic. but the welcome page is very much broken.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::23:32] Bojhan: CrashTest_: usability group.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::24:06] yoroy: yeah, i think those two get mixed up sometimes.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::24:38] shannonlucas: Bojhan: it'd be nice to have some sort of "how can i help?" link on the usability group

 

  [2008-09-16 21::25:19] jeffnoyes: bojhan, help was bigger than just help. It was a launch point. The front page disappearing. A huge issue.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::25:20] illuminaut: I've had that very issue today looking at the group page

 

  [2008-09-16 21::25:22] catch__: by the way this all sounds good (daughter is keeping me afk)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::25:26] Bojhan: Oke, sooo.... to repeat myself : Pick Subject > Discuss/Brainstrom > Analyze by UX-team > Usability test > Build > Polish > Usability test

 

  [2008-09-16 21::25:51] catch__: Bojhan: yes, but that'll be the absolute longest, some stuff is likely to take shortcuts.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:02] heatherj: paraphrasing webchick's steps: Usability changes, especially large topics, will be discussed in groups.drupal.org. Group leaders/experts will channel the decisions to the issue queue after deliberation.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:10] Bojhan: catch__: Yup, we'r not worried about all of the issues, just the one regarding our subject.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:20] shannonlucas: Bojhan: what specifically is being tested after the analyze step?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:32] jeffnoyes: sounds good. Until we get the licenses, I can volunteer to be the driver for any study you choose. But we'll have to schedule it so that I dont get overloaded.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:34] Bojhan: shannonlucas: prototypes?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:41] yoroy: paper prototypes and the like

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:42] catch__: I think it'd be good to discuss a way to get UX issues which go straight to the issue queue fed back into this process somehow

 

  [2008-09-16 21::26:54] Bojhan: catch__: Good point.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::27:00] yoroy: catch: good point

 

  [2008-09-16 21::27:34] shannonlucas: Bojhan: looks like there should be a design step between analyze and test then

 

  [2008-09-16 21::28:22] jeffnoyes: Huge fan of paper prototypes.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::28:28] yoroy: yay!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::28:36] Bojhan: loves em

 

  [2008-09-16 21::28:37] jeffnoyes: we can use them and test through connect as well.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::28:46] Bojhan: There is a book comming out on it, btw.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::28:46] yoroy: cool.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::28:59] shannonlucas: developed a process around them for driving requirements gathering

 

  [2008-09-16 21::29:10] » CrashTest_ is now known as CrashAFK.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::29:20] yoroy: Bojhan: do the summary once more :-)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::29:26] Bojhan: eh

 

  [2008-09-16 21::30:25] shannonlucas: Bojhan: i'm thinking the mockup happens after analyzing the data from the discussion or perhaps during the analysis

 

  [2008-09-16 21::30:39] illuminaut: what do you mean you can't test it

 

  [2008-09-16 21::30:48] Bojhan: I meant, you cant test, if you have nothing to test.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::31:07] » CrashAFK left the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::31:08] illuminaut: right

 

  [2008-09-16 21::31:54] Bojhan: So we can definitly put it as phase, but isnt it logical to have it?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::31:58] catch__: the two usability tests are pre/post patch?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::32:33] Bojhan: catch__: Yes, because otherwise you dont test it in the compelete context of things.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::32:39] heatherj: summarized notes about process if it helps http://drupalbin.com/3168

 

  [2008-09-16 21::32:45] catch__: Also - how do you folks want to get involved in the issue queue (which is another way of asking the same question)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::33:10] Bojhan: catch__: Good, so. I dont know, what the best process here is.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::33:34] yoroy: catch__: do you mean for the smaller issues?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::33:37] catch__: Bojhan: so, I keep an eye on most patches which affect UX, except maybe some of the theming stuff.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::33:42] heatherj: erp. http://drupalbin.com/3169

 

  [2008-09-16 21::34:09] yoroy: heatherj: great, thank you

 

  [2008-09-16 21::34:38] catch__: yoroy: yeah pretty much. Things which people will think of and could code in a matter of minutes/hours.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::34:53] illuminaut: so you're not involving users until after a mockup is created?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::35:00] Bojhan: catch__: So, well I am thinking about this really. Because for the topic we work on, ofcourse updates will be posted towards the affecting issues.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::35:10] yoroy: catch__: we could make a shortlist in g.d.o/u

 

  [2008-09-16 21::35:26] catch__: OK so this would be an example: http://drupal.org/node/305740

 

  [2008-09-16 21::35:49] Bojhan: illuminaut: Thats kind of a paradox, because in some way you dont, but in most ways you do.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::36:13] yoroy: catch__: oooh, before and after screens are really helpful there

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:05] Bojhan: catch__: I think yoroy's idea is the most viable one.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:09] jeffnoyes: I'm going to close down the connect room.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:19] Bojhan: but but my picture

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:25] jeffnoyes: it was nice.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:32] Bojhan: hmm, ok :P

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:37] yoroy: skitch it , quick!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:44] jeffnoyes: too late

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:52] illuminaut: bojhan: i'm just wondering about the process you outlined. if the mockups are based solely on brainstorming and ux team review you can completely miss the mark and design and test something that doesnt meet the actual needs

 

  [2008-09-16 21::37:53] heatherj: lol

 

  [2008-09-16 21::38:13] yoroy: illuminaut: that's what the first lo-fi test is for

 

  [2008-09-16 21::38:14] jeffnoyes: can we put up a calendar at g.d.0.u?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::38:37] Bojhan: illuminaut: You'r right, but we can't go out and test 80 opposed solutions.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::38:37] yoroy: jeffnoyes: I'm collecting a whishlist for g.d.o/u

 

  [2008-09-16 21::39:00] shannonlucas: illuminaut: what would you propose? it's not as though we can let folks vote on the placement of every link or button as we add it to the mockup

 

  [2008-09-16 21::39:15] yoroy: jeffnoyes he's eager to help us out and improve g.d.o as a whole

 

  [2008-09-16 21::39:20] catch__: That could work.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::39:36] shannonlucas: the mockups are based on an analysis of the feedback and brainstorming that included user input

 

  [2008-09-16 21::39:39] catch__: Because for performance or API patches, there's certain types of write-up which get things RTBC fairly quick, and some that don't.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::40:01] shannonlucas: the UX team then leverages that with their experience in the field and from training to build the mockups

 

  [2008-09-16 21::40:04] Bojhan: catch__: Screenshots / video clips for interactions.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::40:19] yoroy: webchick: any hope on a patchapplyatron demo site?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::40:26] illuminaut: shannonlucas: nothing like that. but there are ways to validate use cases for example

 

  [2008-09-16 21::40:45] webchick: yoroy: Not yet, although the bot has been put in place, so it's proabbly more possible now.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::40:59] yoroy: you do that :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::41:10] heatherj: for the first topic.. webchick said "help" only as an illustration, i think. it's not a good starting point. something practical/functional where there's already been alot of work at the recent sprint/etc would be a good start.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::41:23] webchick: Oh yes. Totally only as an example.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::41:48] » chx_sleeping is now known as chx.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::41:49] yoroy: heatherj: welcome page would be good though. People strand on step 1

 

  [2008-09-16 21::41:56] heatherj: starts a cheering section for node creation form.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::42:03] webchick: Welcome page is nice because it's a much smaller scope

 

  [2008-09-16 21::42:34] illuminaut: i.e. in the specific example of the welcome page, you can go ahead and brainstorm based on what you think should be there, or you can ask people what they actually expect to find there

 

  [2008-09-16 21::42:54] Bojhan: illuminaut: Hehe, define "people".

 

  [2008-09-16 21::43:04] catch__: yoroy: before/after is easy. I think we can encourage people to do that for any proposed changes.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::43:20] illuminaut: potential users spanning various user profiles

 

  [2008-09-16 21::43:37] yoroy: webchick hmmm not small per sé. welcome page has a lot to do with copy writing. lots of potential for bikeshedding and scope creep there.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::43:43] Bojhan: illuminaut: Thats the role of UX-team, to jump in and talk about the user, and do that part of research.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::43:44] webchick: Ah, true.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::43:55] yoroy: but I'd like to start with it regardless :-)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:08] heatherj: hmm... okey. i kinda think of the welcome screen... as the same problem as help.. it drapes over the existing system?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:13] illuminaut: so the ux team provides you with profiles and use cases?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:15] Bojhan: illuminaut: Thats our job and we hope that people will clinch in on that process, during the discussion.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:17] yoroy: heatherj: yes.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:24] shannonlucas: "User A is a Level 3 Accountant with a +3 against functional computers" :-p

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:30] yoroy: heatherj: welcome page is the actual issue that needs fixing

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:35] Bojhan: shannonlucas: haha

 

  [2008-09-16 21::44:46] yoroy: "Help" is the big project that we all tend to make of it…

 

  [2008-09-16 21::45:09] illuminaut: i'm not questioning ideas, just trying to understand the process as a whole

 

  [2008-09-16 21::45:45] Bojhan: illuminaut: You will counter hunders of use cases when you go trough 1 usability discussion, the idea is that we try to stear the discussion towards the important ones. Which isnt something our predefined deliverables can do,

 

  [2008-09-16 21::46:21] yoroy: So, who here does NOT want to fix the welcome page first?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::46:26] illuminaut: this is probably the wrong meeting for that anyway, feel free to tell me to shut up if i'm derailing the agenda here

 

  [2008-09-16 21::46:33] yoroy: stares across the room sternly

 

  [2008-09-16 21::46:37] Bojhan: illuminaut: Dont worry.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::46:55] yoroy: ok. that's settled then.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::47:37] Bojhan: yoroy: So should we setup like a GOOD post on, what we are gonna do ect?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::47:43] yoroy: first round of ux spotlight is for the Welcome page.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::47:50] Bojhan: instead of 15 diffrent blog posts.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::47:52] yoroy: yep, that's next, the kick off

 

  [2008-09-16 21::47:58] Bojhan: Ok ok :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::48:30] yoroy: ok everybody. it that enough for today's meeting? Who wants can stay and furhter discuss g.d.o/u tools and process

 

  [2008-09-16 21::48:36] catch__: hold on. how do we fix the welcome page without making it part of the help system?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::49:02] yoroy: haha

 

  [2008-09-16 21::49:17] Bojhan: catch__: Shall we just start talking about terminlogy then? :D

 

  [2008-09-16 21::49:52] yoroy: beeradb_: Bojhan catch__ drumm elv_ heatherj illuminaut jeffnoyes shannonlucas webchick yoroy: Thanks for coming!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::49:56] catch__: Have you all seen the existing help system patch?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:07] beeradb_: heh, unfortunately I was afk most of the chat

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:09] Bojhan: shannonlucas: Can you explain a bit, what kind of tests you can do? - Which are part of your context at Acquia.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:23] shannonlucas: Bojhan: i don't work for acquia

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:24] beeradb_: I certainly want to help out where I can with this effort though.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:27] Bojhan: catch__: There wasnt a screenshot, was?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:46] » SteveJB joined the chat room.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:53] catch__: Bojhan: no screenshot.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::50:55] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: Can you explain a bit, what kind of tests you can do? - Which are part of your context at Qcquia

 

  [2008-09-16 21::51:23] illuminaut: btw I have morae licences if somebody is thinking of using that for a test

 

  [2008-09-16 21::51:27] yoroy: hi SteveJB . We are just finishing the meeting…

 

  [2008-09-16 21::51:29] heatherj: @SteveJB http://drupalbin.com/3169 for some notes.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::51:43] yoroy: illuminaut: good to know!

 

  [2008-09-16 21::51:50] SteveJB: hey thats ok, Its late night here and I tend to drop out of meetings unanounced

 

  [2008-09-16 21::51:55] jeffnoyes: I can explain how I use it.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::51:59] SteveJB: ty heatherj

 

  [2008-09-16 21::52:05] heatherj: nods.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::52:11] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: Would be nice.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::52:53] jeffnoyes: I create mockups, mockups get parsed into code. Then Kieran finds participants in the community.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::53:09] illuminaut: yeah it wouldnt be available for otehrs to use obviously, but it can be useful as a short term measure if in a clinch

 

  [2008-09-16 21::53:34] jeffnoyes: We reach out, give them a URL of our work, and have them join connect.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::53:37] Bojhan: illuminaut: I think if the adobe connect pro idea, doesnt work we can give it a try.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::53:55] illuminaut: so what are some ways I can get involved? i'm new to drupal but a ux veteran

 

  [2008-09-16 21::53:58] jeffnoyes: We then observe them as we ask them to perform tasks on the tool

 

  [2008-09-16 21::54:34] Bojhan: illuminaut: I can give you a good introduction in a bit. But read a bit on the usability group.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::54:40] SteveJB: There is a videochat program called camfrog, one audio channel but multiple video channels. Similar to irc, rooms and client licenses are relatively cheap.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::54:56] jeffnoyes: We can record the sessions, and post them

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:00] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: So you mostly do task analysis?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:08] jeffnoyes: yes.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:08] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: In the traditional sense.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:26] jeffnoyes: we're doing rapid usability tests of our work.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:37] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: Oke, have you tried out other methods as well? To find out how people learn Drupal?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:42] shannonlucas: jeffnoyes: nice to see a company actively doing that

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:43] heatherj: i think the question illuminaut has is the crucial point of the usability group's page- where we need to communicate this (new) process so people know how to get involved.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::55:53] SteveJB: quick q, is there an irclog of the channel?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::56:11] yoroy: heatherj: yes we need write-ups

 

  [2008-09-16 21::56:22] jeffnoyes: Bojhan: No. It's not a tool for collecting data, it's more to test the results of your work

 

  [2008-09-16 21::57:00] Bojhan: jeffnoyes: Ahh, oke. So, your mockups do they return in Drupal core, or are they Acquia specific?

 

  [2008-09-16 21::57:00] jeffnoyes: Shannonlucas: the good news is I'm trying to makes this available to all of you.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::57:32] yoroy: SteveJB: I'll post a log

 

  [2008-09-16 21::57:54] jeffnoyes: right now they're acquia specific, but after we release, they can be for drupal as well. I'm working on getting everyone licenses so that we all can do tests like these.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::58:16] Bojhan: heatherj: I think, what you'r concernd about is a good thing, its communcation. However as we all know, communcation is very distributed around usability, we will try to focus it more on the group, but need help.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::58:31] illuminaut: ah well, real-life meeting. i'll check the group page for more info on how to get involved but it could benefit from a more central post in a prominent location

 

  [2008-09-16 21::58:46] shannonlucas: illuminaut: you're being modest; didn't know you were on oracle's UI team

 

  [2008-09-16 21::58:53] SteveJB: ty yoroy

 

  [2008-09-16 21::58:58] yoroy: illuminaut: that will happen once we're set to channel the input

 

  [2008-09-16 21::59:15] Bojhan: illuminaut: Yup, I think we just need to work on it a bit.

 

  [2008-09-16 21::59:20] illuminaut: looking at the current UI state of oracle apps that's nothinog to be proud of :p

 

  [2008-09-16 21::59:29] Bojhan: haha

 

  [2008-09-16 21::59:43] illuminaut: but we've improved :)

 

  [2008-09-16 21::59:48] shannonlucas: illuminaut: well, that happens at Microsoft too :p

 

  [2008-09-16 21::59:50] SteveJB: sun and oracle seem invested in ux though. Atleast ya guys try illuminaut :)

 

  [2008-09-16 22::00:09] Bojhan: Its the culture! As Jared would say.

 

  [2008-09-16 22::00:10] illuminaut: yeah, the UX group has more than hundred ppl, that's not bad

 

  [2008-09-16 22::00:20] shannonlucas: illuminaut: !!! wpw

 

  [2008-09-16 22::00:26] illuminaut: ok gotta run, see y'all

 

  [2008-09-16 22::00:29] Bojhan: cya

 

  [2008-09-16 22::00:30] shannonlucas: later

 

  [2008-09-16 22::00:34] jeffnoyes: cya